OGSA (EMS Design Team) Teleconference Minutes -- 11 October 2004
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* Participants

  Larry Flon (ISI/Globus)
  Andrew Grimshaw (UVa)
  Hiro Kishimoto (Fujitsu)
  Mark Morgan (UVa)
  Hrabri Rajic (Intel)
  Andreas Savva (Fujitsu)
  Ravi Subramaniam (Intel)

  Minutes: Andreas Savva

* Summary:

  - Next call in 2 weeks time; same slot

  - Need to start coming to consensus over terminology. A lot of terms
    have extra baggage so extra care is needed. (It is not an option
    to overload them more.) This is one area that EMS got a lot of
    feedback at GGF12.

  - Agreed on a detailed review (or at least a Q&A) of the document
    once everyone has a chance to read it. This review is scheduled
    for next meeting.

  - Agreed to work through Ravi's issue list. For next time focus on
    (b,c) and also (a) given time.

  - Ravi & Andrew to review V1 comments and suggest how to address
    them. This is work that should go in parallel to the EMS v2
    work. The deadline for V1 re-submission to GGF is not that far
    away.

  - Agreed on need to refine service (interface?) definitions maybe
    going to the wsdl level for some.

  - Agreed that 'resource' needs refinement.

  - Need to review the material given to OGSA-WG over the summer about
    CIM and WSDM and try to use it in EMS work

  - Ravi to work on engaging more people to work on EMS.

* Introduction
  
  - Document sent out by Ravi is a re-organization of the material in
    the OGSA spec V1 document.

  - In this call review goals and go quickly through this
    document. Decide course of action.

  - Reference to document updated with discussion from this call:
    http://www-unix.gridforum.org/mail_archive/ogsa-wg/2004/10/msg00023.html

* Document walkthrough

** Focus

   - Question on ontology/terms:
     - Definition of terms and how they relate to other terms in the
       language. E.g., how to describe jobs.
     - Note that the 'terms' here do not refer just to job
       submission. Expect to include description of other job phases.

** Guiding principles

   - Minor addition: "Adhere to general ogsa design principles"
     (reference is ok).

** Conceptual Framework

   - The terminology in this area (workload, resource, etc) has a lot
     of baggage already

   - Expanded terms (hierarchy) here; includes (business) processes.
     - Concern raised with existing definitions and how to reach
       consensus. This was a major issue during the GGF12 EMS
       sessions. [Especially a lot of pushback on the 'job' &
       'workflow' definitions.]
     - This is a first proposal to get the ball rolling. Expect
       refinement. 
     - Need to make sure the terminology is in agreement with OGSA
       Glossary in V1.
     - The relation between these terms must also be described
     - The hierarchy figure is not in current document.
       - Ravi to consider whether to bring it back

     - [One problem in OGSA V1 is the relation between task and job
       and the inconsistent usage of these terms.]

** EMS Services/Resources

  - Many different types of resources; haven't talked about their
    granularity yet.
  - Past discussion indicated that the PSHS might not be a resource
    but some kind of information service instead.
  - The way forward here is to drill down on the required interfaces;
    that seems the only way to determine what these entities really
    are.
  - Generic properties about resources: enabled by underlying standard
    used; e.g., wsrf.

** EMS Services/Job management

  - The problem here (too) is that all these terms are overloaded
  - Ravi wants to put forward the concept that 'job' is 'self-aware';
    in the sense that it can manage itself/enact its schedule

  Action: For next meeting (scheduled in 2 weeks time) need to start
          coming to consesus over terminology because this was a main
          contentious issue during GGF12. (Ravi to drive this process)

** Selection services

*** Reservation

  - Is this a single service or set of services?
    - It might just be an interface. (It is somewhat misleading to
      talk about services at this point.)
    - Needs more clarification

** Interactions with rest of OGSA

  - Need to refine this section to the level of requirements
    - Agreed that it is not sufficient to just point to a WG or
      describe things in general.

  - Monitoring 'jobs' described here is one aspect.  Also have to
    discuss the monitoring capabilities provided by EM services (what
    information is provided etc)

** Questions to be resolved:

  - Issues noted by Ravi were added at the end of the document

  - (d,e) The scenarios so far only dealt with what happens when jobs
    are started.  Haven't really worked through to what happens in
    later stages, e.g., job migration.

  - (l) Delegation
    - Not just the security aspect but also the operational one: what
      functionality to delegate & how to do it.

  - Other issues raised in earlier discussion:
    - What is a resource and how to represent it
    - Granularity of resources

  - Comment that some of the questions noted by Ravi may point to
    specific usage scenarios. Their range can be quite big.

* Discussion on how to move forward

  - Since many people on the call are first time participants we
    should allow time for them to read & digest the material and
    review in more detail later.
    - Participants should review document and be up to date when
      joining the teleconferences

  - Andrew: Need to drill down on some existing scenarios in order to
    determine whether what's required by EMS is provided by what other
    groups are definining
    - For example, whether deployment as defined by CDDLM-WG is what
      EMS requires.
    - EMS currently defines a small set of services. These are fairly
      well understood by participants (terminology question aside, in
      particular wrt job/job manager) so moving forward should not be
      too difficult.
    - Also resource side needs refinement

  - How to proceed with discussing question list
    - Will address as discussion topics in teleconferences (allow
      sufficient time so that people can think things through in
      advance)
    - Feel free to add issues to this list

  - Also work through some of the scenarios to get a better
    understanding of issues.

  - Given some of the scenarios we can look how the existing questions
    fit into them and what needs to be done to address them

  - Questions (b) & (c) on Ravi's list (job / resource) might be good
    topic for next time
    - and (a) as the next issue

  - There are a number of issues wrt v1 that have to be addressed this
    month for re-submission to the GGF Editor. Waiting for the next
    EMS call (2 weeks from now) is too late
    - Andreas will send the v1 issues spreadsheet to Ravi (>Done)
      - Address some of the topics next OGSA call / or by email
      - Andrew & Ravi to arrange an OGSA v1 EMS review call Friday
        afternoon to start discussing issues

  - Two proposals came up at GGF12
    - Do an EMS F2F
      - Many people indicated that they might not want (or be able) to
        travel just for such a meeting
      - Ravi is thinking of other possibilities such as co-locating
        with some other bigger event.
    - Choose a couple of services and drill down to wsdl

  - Interactions with other groups
    - GSA-RG participants and also Jim Pruyne (GRAAP-WG) have been
      responsive
    - How to engage more people
      - One issue was the teleconference time slot. It is not so
        convenient to European participants but it is the only one
        that has (more or less) worked for US/Japan/UK for some time.
    - Also need to think how EMS work should relate to DMTF work (cim,
      profiles, etc)
      - EMS participants should read up on the material that OGSA-WG
        got over the summer from CIM & WSDM and then ask engage those
        groups in a discussion.

  - Next call: 2 weeks from now Monday